12/09/2010

Wittgenstein on the difficulty of speaking

I read the following entry in one of Wittgenstein's diaries today:

I speak far too easily. --- Through a question or an objection one can seduce me to produce a stream of words. While I talk I sometimes see that I am on an ugly track: that I say more than I mean, talk to amuse the other, draw in irrelevancies in order to impressionate and so forth. I then strive to correct the conversation, to steer it back onto a more decent course. But only turn it a little and not enough out of fear --- lack of courage --- & retain a bad taste.

This happens to me easily especially in England since the difficulty of communication (because of character, not because of the language) are enormous from the start. So that one must perform one's exercises on a swaying raft rather than on solid ground. For one never knows whether the other has entirely understood one; & the other has never understood oneentirely.


This entry is particularly interesting to me because the very same words can be used to express my own experience. Indeed, I find that the difficulty of communication makes me speak far too easily. This is not paradoxical, for the word "easily" does not mean without difficulty, but means likely to happen.

I speak faster in English than in Chinese even though English is my second language, and even though my spoken English is far from good. When I speak English, I am "on a swaying raft rather than on solid ground", so I have to move a lot to make sure that I am heading in the right direction.

6 comments:

  1. Speaking of Wittgenstein and being on a swaying raft of undeveloped ideas, I recently searched Google for a Wittgenstein quote:

    "It is only the attempt to write down your ideas that enables them to develop."

    YOU MAY BE GRATIFIED TO LEARN THAT YOUR BLOG ENTRY "PLEASE SIT DOWN AND WRITE" [Wong (2009)] WAS THE FIRST HIT and led me to compile the references listed below.

    Thanks for the assistance.

    BTW, I had thought that a related quote:

    "How can I tell what I think till I see what I say?"

    was also due to Wittgenstein but was informed by educator Michael Shayer that it's from E.M. Forster , consistent with which credits E.M. Forster (1927) in his "Aspects of the Novel," Chapter Five "The Plot."

    Regards,

    Richard Hake, Emeritus Professor of Physics, Indiana University
    Honorary Member, Curmudgeon Lodge of Deventer, The Netherlands
    President, PEdants for Definitive Academic References which Recognize
    the Invention of the Internet (PEDARRII)







    As long as learning is connected with earning, as long as certain jobs can only be reached through exams, so long must we take the examination system seriously. If another ladder to employment was contrived, much so-called education would disappear, and no one be a penny the stupider.
    E.M. Forster (1927)


    REFERENCES
    Drury, Maurice O'Connor 1984. “Conversations with Wittgenstein,” in Wittgenstein et al. (1984, p. 161). [According to : "In 1938, he [Wittgenstein] traveled to Ireland to visit Maurice O'Connor Drury, a friend who became a psychiatrist, and considered such training himself, with the intention of abandoning philosophy for it."]. See also Drury et al. (1996), Wong (2009), and the Wikipedia entry on Drury at .

    Drury, Maurice O'Connor. 1996. "The Danger of Words and Writings on Wittgenstein," Thoemmes Press. Amazon.com information at .

    Forster, E.M. 1927. "Aspects of the Novel." Harcourt, Brace & Co. Amazon.com information at .

    Wittgenstein, H., F. Pascal, F.R. Leavis, J. King, M. O'C. Drury, ed. by R. Rhees. 1984. "Recollections of Wittgenstein" Oxford University Press. Amazon.com information at .

    Wong, W. 2009. "Please sit down and write," in Wang's blog "Hummings in the Fly-Bottle," online at . Wong quotes several paragraphs from Drury (1984) that places into context Wittgenstein's "It is only the attempt to write down your ideas that enables them to develop."

    ReplyDelete
  2. Please ignore my previous comment. All the links were removed because I had surrounded them with angle brackets. Here's a version with all the angle brackets removed.

    Speaking of Wittgenstein and being on a swaying raft of undeveloped ideas, I recently searched Google http://www.google.com/ for a Wittgenstein quote:

    "It is only the attempt to write down your ideas that enables them to develop."

    YOU MAY BE GRATIFIED TO LEARN THAT YOUR BLOG ENTRY "PLEASE SIT DOWN AND WRITE" [Wong (2009)] WAS THE FIRST HIT and led me to compile the references listed below.

    Thanks for the assistance.

    BTW, I had thought that a related quote:

    "How can I tell what I think till I see what I say?"

    was also due to Wittgenstein but was informed by educator Michael Shayer http://amzn.to/fh1y4Q> that it's from E.M. Forster http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._M._Forster, consistent with http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/E._M._Forster which credits E.M. Forster (1927) in his "Aspects of the Novel," Chapter Five "The Plot."

    Regards,

    Richard Hake, Emeritus Professor of Physics, Indiana University
    Honorary Member, Curmudgeon Lodge of Deventer, The Netherlands
    President, PEdants for Definitive Academic References which Recognize
    the Invention of the Internet (PEDARRII)
    rrhake@earthlink.net>
    http://www.physics.indiana.edu/~hake
    http://www.physics.indiana.edu/~sdi
    http://HakesEdStuff.blogspot.com
    http://iub.academia.edu/RichardHake

    As long as learning is connected with earning, as long as certain jobs can only be reached through exams, so long must we take the examination system seriously. If another ladder to employment was contrived, much so-called education would disappear, and no one be a penny the stupider.
    E.M. Forster (1927)


    REFERENCES
    Drury, Maurice O'Connor 1984. “Conversations with Wittgenstein,” in Wittgenstein et al. (1984, p. 161). [According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_Wittgenstein: "In 1938, he [Wittgenstein] traveled to Ireland to visit Maurice O'Connor Drury, a friend who became a psychiatrist, and considered such training himself, with the intention of abandoning philosophy for it."]. See also Drury et al. (1996), Wong (2009), and the Wikipedia entry on Drury at http://bit.ly/hNsGKR.

    Drury, Maurice O'Connor. 1996. "The Danger of Words and Writings on Wittgenstein," Thoemmes Press. Amazon.com information at http://amzn.to/gSgrsR.

    Forster, E.M. 1927. "Aspects of the Novel." Harcourt, Brace & Co. Amazon.com information at http://amzn.to/ghsyEV.

    Wittgenstein, H., F. Pascal, F.R. Leavis, J. King, M. O'C. Drury, ed. by R. Rhees. 1984. "Recollections of Wittgenstein" Oxford University Press. Amazon.com information at http://amzn.to/hcF0AI.

    Wong, W. 2009. "Please sit down and write," in Wang's blog "Hummings in the Fly-Bottle," online at http://bit.ly/e998nT. Wong quotes several paragraphs from Drury (1984) that places into context Wittgenstein's "It is only the attempt to write down your ideas that enables them to develop."

    ReplyDelete
  3. Here's the third try to post a comment:

    Speaking of Wittgenstein and being on a swaying raft of undeveloped ideas, I recently searched Google http://www.google.com/ for a Wittgenstein quote:

    "It is only the attempt to write down your ideas that enables them to develop."

    YOU MAY BE GRATIFIED TO LEARN THAT YOUR BLOG ENTRY "PLEASE SIT DOWN AND WRITE" [Wong (2009)] WAS THE FIRST HIT and led me to compile the references listed below.

    Thanks for the assistance.

    BTW, I had thought that a related quote:

    "How can I tell what I think till I see what I say?"

    was also due to Wittgenstein but was informed by educator Michael Shayer http://amzn.to/fh1y4Q> that it's from E.M. Forster http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._M._Forster, consistent with http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/E._M._Forster which credits E.M. Forster (1927) in his "Aspects of the Novel," Chapter Five "The Plot."

    Regards,

    Richard Hake, Emeritus Professor of Physics, Indiana University
    Honorary Member, Curmudgeon Lodge of Deventer, The Netherlands
    President, PEdants for Definitive Academic References which Recognize
    the Invention of the Internet (PEDARRII)
    rrhake@earthlink.net>
    http://www.physics.indiana.edu/~hake
    http://www.physics.indiana.edu/~sdi
    http://HakesEdStuff.blogspot.com
    http://iub.academia.edu/RichardHake

    As long as learning is connected with earning, as long as certain jobs can only be reached through exams, so long must we take the examination system seriously. If another ladder to employment was contrived, much so-called education would disappear, and no one be a penny the stupider.
    E.M. Forster (1927)


    REFERENCES
    Drury, Maurice O'Connor 1984. “Conversations with Wittgenstein,” in Wittgenstein et al. (1984, p. 161). [According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_Wittgenstein: "In 1938, he [Wittgenstein] traveled to Ireland to visit Maurice O'Connor Drury, a friend who became a psychiatrist, and considered such training himself, with the intention of abandoning philosophy for it."]. See also Drury et al. (1996), Wong (2009), and the Wikipedia entry on Drury at http://bit.ly/hNsGKR.

    Drury, Maurice O'Connor. 1996. "The Danger of Words and Writings on Wittgenstein," Thoemmes Press. Amazon.com information at http://amzn.to/gSgrsR.

    Forster, E.M. 1927. "Aspects of the Novel." Harcourt, Brace & Co. Amazon.com information at http://amzn.to/ghsyEV.

    Wittgenstein, H., F. Pascal, F.R. Leavis, J. King, M. O'C. Drury, ed. by R. Rhees. 1984. "Recollections of Wittgenstein" Oxford University Press. Amazon.com information at http://amzn.to/hcF0AI.

    Wong, W. 2009. "Please sit down and write," in Wang's blog "Hummings in the Fly-Bottle," online at http://bit.ly/e998nT. Wong quotes several paragraphs from Drury (1984) that places into context Wittgenstein's "It is only the attempt to write down your ideas that enables them to develop."

    ReplyDelete
  4. Several day ago I attempted to comment on this entry but my comments were immediately expunged.

    I would have emailed W. Wong but there seems to be no indication of his email address on this blog or even any information on who he is. Does he really exist?


    Richard Hake, Emeritus Professor of Physics, Indiana University
    Honorary Member, Curmudgeon Lodge of Deventer, The Netherlands
    President, PEdants for Definitive Academic References which Recognize
    the Invention of the Internet (PEDARRII)
    rrhake@earthlink.net
    http://www.physics.indiana.edu/~hake
    http://www.physics.indiana.edu/~sdi
    http://HakesEdStuff.blogspot.com
    http://iub.academia.edu/RichardHake

    ReplyDelete
  5. Richard Hake,

    Sorry that your comments didn't get through (I didn't know what happened). Yes, W. Wong exists; you can reach him at waihung26@gmail.com.

    ReplyDelete
  6. Thanks for your response. I'm delighted to hear that you exist, but that fact is not made clear in your blog http://hummingsintheflybottle.blogspot.com

    I'll email to you at waihung26@gmail.com my comments on Wittgestein that were expunged from your blog.

    Richard Hake, Emeritus Professor of Physics, Indiana University
    http://HakesEdStuff.blogspot.com
    http://www.physics.indiana.edu/~hake

    ReplyDelete